I had an interesting conversation this past Shabbos with one of my wife’s friends. She’s a fairly typical frum girl, went to a somewhat liberal bais-yaakov type school, and is well-educated (master’s degree). She came to visit us Shabbos afternoon, and I’m afraid that the conversation turned to religion. As the conversation moved from minhagim to halachah she realized that I think most of it is nonsense.
It was fascinating how she brought up the typical arguments in favor of Judaism, no doubt gleaned from high-school and seminary hashkafa classes, and how easily I was able to brush them aside with counter-arguments. It was like walking through a security fence made of tissue paper. Of course I didn’t change her mind, but to her credit she readily admitted that I had some good points.
The conversation brought home to me again that most frum Jews (and I imagine most other religious people too) never give much thought to why they believe what they do, and accept the “proofs” they are taught as children without ever evaluating these ideas as adults. Worse, this girl is probably somewhat smarter than average, yet her ignorance of history (even Jewish history), theology, and logic was appalling. Granted, theology isn’t a particular interest of hers, and most of us are ignorant of subjects which don’t interest us, so perhaps she can be excused. But the fact remains that she is going through life with an unexamined belief system, relying on flimsy arguments she was taught as a teenager.
Another interesting thing I noticed was that many of the points that came up I’ve seen around the blog-sphere or have discussed here. I realized that as I write, ideas that have been floating around inside my head for years coalesce into coherent points. It also (unfortunately?) makes them more prominent. For the most part, I’ve managed to compartmentalize. There’s what I believe (or don’t), and there’s what I do. As the ideas become more prominent, it becomes harder to perform the actions without thinking about them. Why bother? Well, that’s another post.
"But the fact remains that she is going through life with an unexamined belief system, relying on flimsy arguments she was taught as a teenager."
ReplyDeleteAs do atheists.
You're probably right about the ones who grow up that way. People generaly don't question the world view they're raised with. What's your point?
ReplyDeleteWhy don't you go OTD? Is the wife whom you describe as "wonderful" holding you back?
ReplyDeleteHave you tried negotiating with your family a move to a conservative congregation or a reform one?
And I know this is gonna sound offensive but I tire of reading all these blogs of non-believers being tied down by emotional shackles to a religion they don't believe in. If they just left and left in massive droves, then Orthodoxy would see something's gotta change. Otherwise by continuing to be be chained down into a faith you don't believe in, you simply keep the cycle going. Your kids may do the same thing and so may their children, and on and on it goes. Its a cycle of abuse that needs to be broken, and it can't be unless you be the first one to just say "no more"!
ReplyDelete> Why don't you go OTD? Is the wife whom you describe as "wonderful" holding you back?
ReplyDelete"Holding back" is a bit harsh. Ultimately, I don't leave because I'm comfortable here, and kind of lazy.
> Have you tried negotiating with your family a move to a conservative congregation or a reform one?
Firstly, who is this "family?" My wife? I don't "negotiate" with my wife. I discuss. We're not rivals. If you mean my parents, I'm a big boy now. I don't need their permission. Secondly, my "family" would see very little difference between Conservative/Reform and secular. And thirdly, Conservative/Reform are still religious. What would I have gained?
By moving to conservative/reform you have options. No need for kosher or any of the other rituals that you don't believe in. Also you get to have freedom to decide on how religious you wish to be, how observant that is, something OJ doesn't give at all.
ReplyDeleteAlso you don't have to pay a million dollars sending kids to yeshivah, where they are brainwashed to become mindless automotoms.
And if you don't go OTD then question is do you want your kids to be in the same position you are today; to be stuck between the two worlds of reason and tribal affiliation and constantly dealing with the giult and the pain that the war between those two opposing paradigms brings?
I still don't see how Conservative or Reform is a better option than just giving up the whole religion thing altogether.
ReplyDelete> the giult and the pain that the war between those two opposing paradigms brings
Guilt and pain?! Religion for me wight now is a mixture of inertia, habit, and social conformity. The stuff that I've never liked doing, I just don't do. The rest doesn't bother me that much.
I blog becuase I find it amusing, not becuase I'm suffering from angst and need to get things off my chest.
You completely ignored the question on the kids.
ReplyDeleteIf you stay OJ does that mean you will willingly send the kids to yeshivahs to be brainwashed, AND spend all that money on an education for your children you don't believe in?
Conservative/Reform is a better option because the kids are exposed to secular culture and the critical thinking that comes in parcel with it.
And yes why not give up the religion altogether?
Also the "I would love to know the answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything" leaves one feeling that maybe you are suffering from the nihilism that accompanies secular thought. Or am I wrong?
ReplyDelete> You completely ignored the question on the kids.
ReplyDeleteYou don't say.
I don't have a good soloution for that yet, but I've got a year or two to figure it out.
> Also the "I would love to know the answer to Life, the Universe, and Everything" leaves one feeling that maybe you are suffering from the nihilism that accompanies secular thought.
That's a quote from the Hitchicker's Guide to the Galaxy, not a statement of my life's mission. But yeah, life is pointless. Life exists to make more life. Anything we do won't last, or even matter in the bigger picture. Do you even know what your great-great grandfather's name was? Most people don't.
Life is only pointless to the godless
ReplyDeleteI think there is a God and that the purpose of mankind is to worship him by being ethical.
But hey you know us religious fanatics:)
Wish you well on the kids!
"Life is only pointless to the godless"
ReplyDeletePeople like to denigrate animals, but what's so bad about being like the animals (just a smart one)? They go through life, being perfectly content without having an ultimate purpose or explanation for everything. Are their lives any less worthy or more "pointless" than ours?
The fact that we have big cerebral cortices makes us curious, which is fine. If it serves us and helps us, so be it. But it doesn't mean that we "have" to have ultimate meaning.
Humanism provides plenty of meaning, if you like that sort of thing. I think that it helps mankind, so that's a good thing.
I find that I don't like to debate religious friends or relatives since I don't see any point in challenging the meaning that they have given their lives. On the other, crackpots like JP, well that's just fun. Also, if someone does something offensive to me, that's another story. I'm preparing a post now about me refusing to attend a wedding because of separate seating for the whole event.
I can really identify with this post of yours. I, too, used to believe all the "proofs" that were given about Judaism and the Torah. And then, as I began to examine the "proofs" and think them through, I found that very few (if any) of them stand up to serious scrutiny. They're all based on faulty reasoning or assuming the thing you're trying to prove or some other logical fallacy.
ReplyDeleteOne of my pet peeves is faulty reasoning or just plain stupidity. Perhaps that why I address these "proofs" on my blog every now and again.
The Wolf
(BTW, G*3, I didn't know you had a blog. I'm adding it to my RSS reader).
I think that my favorite argument now (only for those I choose to argue with) is the "who cares" argument I mentioned on my blog. It completely short circuits all of the unprovable claims and circular arguments of the fundamentalists. The answer to this argument MUST involve the fact that Judaism changes in order to keep it relevant, in which case Jews can change it as they sees fit (which they have).
ReplyDelete>The conversation brought home to me again that most frum Jews (and I imagine most other religious people too) never give much thought to why they believe what they do, and accept the “proofs” they are taught as children without ever evaluating these ideas as adults.
ReplyDeleteI've also noted that there is a stigma in the frum community around BT's . . . as if they're perceived to be "of lesser pedigree". But, it seems to me, that BT's having come through a different thought system, found rationale in the new one should be given a more honoured/welcome place as people who have come into frum life by will rather than by circumstance.